35. Antifascist Tooth Fairy w/ E.V. Debs

35: Antifascist Tooth Fairy w/ E.V. Debs Matthew Remski: Hello everyone, this is Matthew Remski, host of the Antifascist Dad Podcast with episode 35, Antifascist Tooth Fairy with game maker EV Debs. You can find me on Bluesky and Instagram under my name, and I'm on YouTube and TikTok as Antifascist Dad. And the Patreon for this show is antifascistdadpodcast, where subscribers get early access to a second weekly episode. Sometimes it's the second part of the main feed topic, including a part of the interview that I've done, if there's an interview. But today it's going to be a brief follow-up on Mark Carney's authoritarian AI policies. And I think it goes well with this very illiberal topic of how to physically defend your community against violence. I'll just leave it at that. Remember, if you can't afford to support the show, those Patreon episodes all eventually get unlocked. Finally, as always, you'll find a link to order my book, Antifascist Dad: Urgent Conversations with Young People in Chaotic Times. That'll be in the show notes. If you've got the book, please consider leaving a review. There's a new game coming to kitchen tables and cafes throughout the underworld. It's called Antifascist Tooth Fairy and it's designed by EV Debs, which is not their real name, but I'll get to that. They are an antifascist community organizer from Seattle. They're also running a website called anteefa.org — that's a-n-t-e-e-f-a.org — so there's teeth in there, because the game is all about teeth, which is funny. And the site is a resource hub with articles, news, direct action tips, talks about fighting surveillance tech, the new aesthetics of fascism, how to follow through on protests, and all about mutual aid. So there's a game. What's its objective, by the way? It's now up on Kickstarter, it's set to ship in November, and I'll link to the campaign so you can support and bag your own unit, which comes in this very cool brick box. I just got mine the other day. The game aims to familiarize you with the fact that when the shit hits the fan, when you have no other option, you might need to knock out the teeth of fascists, and to realize that there are moral, legal, and organizational risks involved with that. For instance, if you don't spend more time building mutual aid than you do throwing hands, you're going to lose, because you might knock them out of your community, but you won't keep them out. Now, when I say throwing hands, that's a core game mechanic, because each antifascist player — two to five people can play — gets this adorable little plastic fist on an elastic string attached to a finger ring. Very satisfying to flick at fascists on cards that are placed on small, medium, or large stands, depending upon how menacing they are. And you really have to land the punch to topple the big ones, the bosses. And if you knock over nine fascists and advance the brick, you also have to watch out for catching charges, which are recorded by a pig marker that advances every time you punch. And the pig is advancing you to jail, which you want to avoid. So where do the teeth come in? If you topple a fascist, you win a tooth from the tooth bag, and you can either spend them on reducing charges or save them up to trade for a mutual aid card, which, if you gather those together, also advances you towards an antifascist future. And bloody teeth count for more. And then there's occasionally a gold tooth, and that's a big catch. So who is the game designer EV Debs? Well, I don't know who they are any more than we know who that black bloc person is who punched Richard Spencer in the face. And that's because Debs is a pseudonym. Times being what they are, this game maker chose the name Eugene V. Debs, who was a labor leader and socialist born in Terre Haute, Indiana, in 1855. So he's the inspiration for the project. Debs helped form the American Railway Union, which was the nation's first industrial union — super important. And he knew all about violent struggle, because during the 1894 Pullman Strike, President Cleveland sent in the U.S. Army to crush it, and Debs was jailed for contempt for fighting back. And this radicalized him from a labor cooperationist into a revolutionary socialist who actually ran for president five times. Now, about Richard Spencer. EV Debs says that punch on Trump's first inauguration day, January 20, 2017, was an inspiration for them. And that's funny, because it was a point of fascination for me as well, enough so that I put it into my book. Richard Spencer is the white nationalist who drove the extremist flank of support for the MAGA movement. And he was, and maybe he still is, one of the worst people in the world. And that punch flew into the frame while he was doing a live TV interview. The footage went viral and got remixed a thousand times with various music clips. And this sparked widespread debate about the ethics of fighting back. And I think that for young people, these cultural inflection points are well worth talking about, because they've folded themselves into the memosphere, but they're shorn of context and meaning. Like, is it funny, is it cathartic, is it nihilistic, is it earnest? And on the level of the meme, the answer is yes, yes, yes, and yes. The punch came from a black bloc anarchist, a group now being targeted by the state whether they're punching anyone or not. Black bloc is about shared risk and responsibility through anonymity, and that means that the puncher got away. But about 200 of their comrades got kettled and beaten that day, and some dealt with legal harassment for about 18 months afterwards, with the prosecution trying to use the notion of collective responsibility against individuals — an idea that got used against them. And it didn't work, because the cases collapsed. But afterwards, Trump signed an executive order designating Antifa as a domestic terrorist organization, which is ridiculous. I've spoken about that before. But he also released something called NSPM-7, which granted sweeping powers to prosecute anyone left of Bret Stephens for any kind of protest activity, which is part of why my guest today is anonymous. Now, in this house, we talk about how what Richard Spencer did with his life was to incite violence against minorities as the tip of the spear for the rise of the MAGA movement. And no amount of punches would even out the math of the harm he caused over years. But if your kids had been tuned in at the time it happened, they would have heard a chorus of centrist pundits sniveling: this is not how we express our disagreements, we are a nation of laws, and these black bloc kids are going to make everyone look bad, we have to protest peacefully. And these are statements that show the core liberal naivety when it comes to power. Because Spencer's mission was to drive minorities from public life so they won't participate in democracy. Fascists seize control through elections rigged by street terrorists. That's what ICE is about. And the police rarely step in. It's not worth it to them. And a lot of them, along with politicians from both parties in the U.S., are aligned with the fascists against community defenders. Currently, an estimated 300 immigrants at the Delaney Hall ICE facility in Newark, New Jersey, launched a hunger and labor strike on May 22, demanding their release. And protesters have rallied around the facility in support. Now, in response, the Democratic governor, Mikie Sherrill, deployed state police to erect a roughly half-mile barricade around the facility, with officers in riot gear beating protesters. Sherrill has conceded that ICE has made things less safe in Newark and in other New Jersey communities, and that she was trying to give ICE no pretext to expand operations. But she also blamed national extremist groups arriving from out of state for escalating tensions. So the effect on the ground is basically collaboration with ICE. DHS called her deployment of state police a win for law and order, and a senior official thanked her for allowing the New Jersey State Police to cooperate with us. Now, ironically, Sherrill has called for Delaney Hall to be shut down, and was also denied entry to the facility herself when she went on an inspection mission. But this is a classic liberal contradiction: oppose with words, but ultimately aid the enforcement regime when push comes to shove. But back to the Spencer punch. It carried a ton of moral dignity. It inspired a lot of people. But then it also brought tough questions, and the Antifascist Tooth Fairy game points directly into those weeds. Did punching Spencer make it too costly for him to show his face? Well, for a while it did, and now he's pretty much contained on a C-list Substack where he rants into the camera, but honestly, he looks kind of bored. But in Spencer's absence, there have been state crackdowns, January 6th, and Patriot Front thugs have been hired into ICE. And so the question is not moral but strategic. Did the punch accelerate fascism, or did it respond to the fact that fascism is here? And while responding to the presence of fascism, what did it build? What we talk about in this house is that each situation is unique and has to be studied with comrades. Punching someone like that could maim or even kill them, and the activist would live with that forever. But then again, holding space for Spencer's free speech can kill a lot more people. And to the extent his movement made Trump appear more moderate, that's what we've seen. But whatever you do, solidarity means don't try to figure it out and act on your own. And never think that the fist is stronger than the helping hand. So I got to chat with EV Debs for a bit, and I'll roll that now. And when I come back, I'll read a bit from the book about the broader picture of games in antifascism. EV Debs, welcome to Antifascist Dad. EV Debs: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Matthew Remski: Well, now I have to ask first — are you the actual Eugene Victor Debs? EV Debs: I wish I were. That would be hilarious if I pulled off a mask and I was really old and I was, yeah, I'm still alive and I made a board game. No. He's someone from American history that I admire very much. Matthew Remski: And are you using the pseudonym — I mean, present conditions being what they are. We've got this NSPM-7 document that's out and being used against people. Is that part of the mix? EV Debs: It's part of it. Also there are folks in my life who are either from marginalized communities or in other ways vulnerable, and I want to protect them as well. And my very wise and thoughtful partner also encouraged me to use a pseudonym. Matthew Remski: In talking about your game, what on-the-ground, real-life experiences have been most impactful for you in informing the ideas and values behind it? EV Debs: I mean, it's definitely an accumulation over the years. A few things that stand out. So back in 2000, when I was much younger — we were all much younger if we were alive then — I was basically left-leaning, but I wasn't super politically engaged. But the presidential election that year was sort of blatantly stolen, and that definitely upset me and got me thinking about a lot of things. There was a documentary in the early 2000s, I want to say around 2005 or 2006, called Jesus Camp. It really laid out a lot of the things that the folks on the right were working on long-term to seize power, which is basically what they've done. And so a lot of people have kind of seen this coming for a long time, but people want to be comfortable and not talk about this sort of thing. So we've kind of allowed it to happen. Matthew Remski: So there's a game. And I'm wondering how you came to the game format and why you think it's useful for teaching about state power and antifascism. EV Debs: There's all kinds of revolutionary art — there's songs, films, and things like that. But a game is different than a narrative because you're making decisions, you're taking agency, and it lets you take on ideas or mindsets or goals that you might not normally take on, because you're doing so without risk. It's a form of anarchist calisthenics, which is the idea that taking small actions that break rules and norms gives you more agency to do so when you're taking bigger risks. There's Brennan Lee Mulligan, this well-known internet celebrity, who has this monologue from a Dimension 20 episode where he says laws are threats made by the dominant socioeconomic group in a given nation, and it's a promise of violence that's enacted, and the police are basically an occupying army, and so on. And that sort of thing was an inspiration. There are ways to encounter those ideas through something like a rule book or actions you take within a game. Matthew Remski: I interviewed Ben Case, who's the author of Street Rebellion. He's a scholar of the impacts of protest movements, especially when they involve on-the-ground direct actions. And one of the things he said in the line of anarchist calisthenics is that sometimes people can start by thinking about how they're walking around in their city and they have to stay on the sidewalk. Did they ask to be in a place where the car was dominant? What does jaywalking actually mean? When you start doing that, and if you started to do that a little bit more, what would you start feeling about the material rules around you? And I'm wondering if that's something that's familiar to you. EV Debs: I've heard that term before, and yeah, it's a great way to break you out of an everyday mindset where you're really not thinking about these things. Matthew Remski: Okay, so you've rated the game for 18 and up, but I want to play it with our 10 and 13-year-olds. Am I going to get in trouble, or am I going to corrupt them for life? EV Debs: Well, ACAB includes the game rating police. No, it's rated 18 for legal and commercial reasons — there's product testing for younger-audience products. That's more of an individual question. I've had some kids come up to me when I'm demoing the game at a convention, maybe 8 to 10 years old, and they don't really have any idea what this stuff is about. But I'll explain it by saying: if you've seen Star Wars, Princess Leia is fighting against the Empire, which is kind of similar to what these people are doing. Matthew Remski: Why do you think the general, everyday necessity of physically protecting public space for labor movements, immigrants, Jews, queer people — why is that a necessity that a lot of us were aware of about a century ago, but that's now faded from view? What's happened? EV Debs: We're a heavily propagandized society, and the powers that be — whatever you want to call them — who own large media conglomerates and the government, don't want people to rise up and take power like they did, or organize like they did when unions were being created, when figures like Debs were organizing people. We don't really have that front and center. Matthew Remski: How much of it do you think is about manners and a kind of socialization? Like, did you have the experience of beginning to encounter this notion of how you were going to enact community protection in public space — was there a threshold you had to cross to acclimatize yourself to the idea that, oh, actually, the mannered way in which I was brought up is actually not serving my best interests? EV Debs: I'm sure I did cross that threshold at some point, but I don't recall the specific moment. I recall back in 2016 when Trump first got elected — the first time — there were a lot more incidences of violence. I can specifically think of a queer household here in Seattle that got shot up. And again in 2020, during the Black Lives Matter movement, there were trucks full of armed Proud Boys coming through our neighborhoods here, and the police were just fine with that, possibly were on those trucks. And so the idea for the game was actually born from that. I was thinking about our need for community organization, and because I make games, I was like, well, what if I made a game about this? The original idea was more of an area control thing where you're trying to keep them out of your neighborhood. The phrase came to mind: we should be out here collecting Nazi teeth like some antifascist tooth fairies. Which I thought was pretty funny — I amused myself with it. Matthew Remski: That just came to you out of the blue? EV Debs: Yeah. So that kind of stuck, and I like the idea of the actual wordplay of throwing hands being a game mechanic, and so I kind of built it around that. Matthew Remski: It seems like this conditioning that a lot of us have grown up with means that — speaking of Trump's inauguration, I think the first one — this is why when that black bloc person punches Richard Spencer, we get dozens of long think pieces about whether or not we should punch Nazis. EV Debs: Yeah, absolutely. In a way, this is Spencer.gif — the game. That internet phenomenon of the celebration of Nazis being punched was a huge inspiration. I even have a quote in the box from the book Philosophy of Antifascism: Punching Nazis and Fighting White Supremacy: "When fascists show up, their goal, beyond the recruitment of a sympathetic audience, is to harass and intimidate those already oppressed and marginalized in our communities. Community self-defense breaks this presumed monopoly. And importantly, it prevents fascists from projecting an image of uncontested power in public spaces, which itself discourages potential recruits." Matthew Remski: My understanding of it is that you make it very unprofitable — you really disincentivize that kind of behavior. But I also want to say that especially since this show is preoccupied with how young people interact with these ideas, we have to be clear that we're talking about actions that are legally defined as assault, even if they're in self-defense. And of course, charges generally go against antifascists. So there's a whole layer of the game that's about navigating charges and helping comrades who get caught. But what about the moral dimension of knowing that you potentially are really injuring a person? Because I think that particular point makes for a lot of leftists who might think that to be a violation of their self-image. What do you think about that? EV Debs: I think under normal circumstances I would not want to injure anyone. But when we're talking about this sort of thing, ultimately these folks are bullies, and standing up to them is preventing harm from coming to the people that they are bullying. And I think that's a risk that they need to assume. Matthew Remski: Then there's the question of what about those of us who are legitimately terrified of physical confrontation? Maybe we've been on the wrong end of it too often. Maybe we don't feel as physically embodied or competent. Will this game help with that, or will it make those folks feel more excluded? EV Debs: It helps to normalize it in conversation, or philosophically. But there's a big difference between that and actually getting into a physical confrontation with someone. I saw your interview with Maren Forsberg recently — she discussed that really nicely. And there's a big difference between, I mean, even talking shit on the internet and actually talking to somebody in person. I don't think this game will specifically help with that, and I don't really want to encourage that specifically, but highlight it as a reality and sometimes a necessity. Matthew Remski: My favorite writer on games is Thi Nguyen — I don't know if you've heard of him — but he says that games are the art of agency, by which he means that they give you the capacity to imagine acting in a way that you've never acted before. And so I'm wondering if that's part of your hope as well. EV Debs: Yeah. I set out to make this a fun, engaging game because no one will play it otherwise. And I think there are a couple of different levels. For folks that are already engaged in antifascist action, or just on that side politically, there's something for them to come together on and play and enjoy and have fun with — kind of recognize those references and be like, I see what you did there. But for anyone who's unfamiliar with it or curious about it, it's the kind of thing where it can be an inflection point for people who are open to those ideas. There's a podcast I really liked called That Dang Dad, by an ex-police officer who's now a police abolitionist. I think he's not actively doing it anymore, but there's one episode that really struck me where he talked about how he's always been a fan of hip hop, and he was listening to a Run the Jewels song where the lyric — I think it's "we're killing them for freedom because they tortured us for boredom, even if some good ones die, fuck it, the Lord of Sorghum" — and it struck him because the whole "even if some good ones die" was something he'd heard said as a cop. Hearing it from the other side, from people oppressed by the cops, really gave him some perspective on that. Matthew Remski: Finishing up — what's your best advice for the 16-year-old who's starting to think about protecting their community and protecting the vulnerable in their community in a fascist age, in the age of ICE? EV Debs: I would prioritize learning de-escalation first, and talk to people who were involved with that action. Avoid anyone who is actively looking for a fight — that is not the way to go. It is a last resort. Look for ways to participate where you can learn without endangering yourself too much or being a liability. And also educate yourself both philosophically and practically. If you go entirely philosophical, you wind up getting into a lot of arguments on the internet. But if it's just taking action without understanding the underpinnings, I think when you need to make decisions, they're not as grounded as they need to be. Matthew Remski: EV Debs, thank you so much for taking the time, and thanks for building this game. EV Debs: Oh, thanks. Thank you for having me, and thanks for this podcast. --- Matthew Remski: So thanks again to EV Debs for the chat. Remember that you can find the Kickstarter link to support the game and bag your own copy — that link will be in the show notes. So I'm going to end with an excerpt from my book about that broader meaning of games. I believe that one of the most important things the antifascist kid can do is play more games. Video games, board games, Dungeons and Dragons, Magic the Gathering, Twister, and fun sports — not the prematurely professionalized sports where kids are playing soccer six days a week because their parents really, really want them to. So why should we play more games? Because some of the most important ideas in this book can be explored through gaming. How to face challenges and figure them out without limiting physical danger. How to build alliances and friendships. How to identify enemy behavior before it hits you. How to understand and work with advantages and disadvantages, abilities and disabilities. How to practice the principle "from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs." How to become self-aware of your role and position and how it differs in relation to others. How to gather the best information you can in order to make choices that give you a sense of agency. How to understand the difference between moral actions and strategic actions, and how to envision yourself as a helper and caregiver, or a disruptor or antihero or anime demon or furry unicorn. And here's a big one: if we don't know we're going to win at a game, do we try as hard as we can anyway? Do we try our hardest because it's the right thing to do and it feels good? This is the question every antifascist faces when they confront fascism. One of my favorite philosophers is Thi Nguyen. He's a big gamer and he wrote a book called Games: Agency as Art, in which he basically says that games are not at all a waste of time or just for fun, because they are a way in which we practice how to survive and exist and be creative in the midst of struggle. The primary value of any game, Nguyen says, is that it allows the player to explore what it takes to have agency — which is the ability to make intentional choices toward a goal. In capitalism, agency is unequally distributed. Some people have it; others are not allowed to have it. When capitalism boils over into fascism, agency is taken away from scapegoats. If games are an exploration of gaining and exercising agency in the world, they must have a role to play in preparing for a full antifascist life, because they are about learning what it means to become a whole person. Nguyen says that games are art because exploring agency is creative. Games encourage you to imagine yourself with different qualities and powers than you typically have. So do you take a long time on the loadout screen? That's part of what you're doing. Do you sometimes pause the gameplay so you can review your inventory? The weapons and accessories and armor and helmets are all the ingredients of a temporary self. Many games encourage you to roleplay — you can develop a character according to your personality or special interests, or against them to try something different, or in relation to other characters to complement each other's abilities. Many games allow you to change roles and express agency within a range of new characters and motivations. All of this is healthy for a person who wants to explore their many possible or undiscovered qualities, or to understand the different qualities of other people. The same principle applies to how games allow you to explore new worlds and learn new laws and customs, so you can compare these to those of your own world. And then there's morality versus strategy. Games, Nguyen says, set up arbitrary goals — like collecting virtual tokens or defeating dragons — that are separated off from moral implications. Pursuing those goals within the game can encourage behaviors that would feel immoral outside of the game. But the behaviors are temporary and the strategies are disposable. They can be changed. You can just try them out. Using games that way can make your feelings about morality versus strategy clear, and how the difference between the two can be used in terrible or useful ways. In games like Monopoly or Imperial, for example, you can explore how the capitalist suspends all morality to become a conscious asshole in the relentless pursuit of building wealth. This can give a lot of clarity about how that system works in the wild. We can feel the peak of capitalist logic and how it can drive people insane, leaving their everyday communism behind, forgetting all vulnerable human concerns. That can be good information for us to have when we're trying to imagine what move a capitalist will make next in the real world. And then, flipping it around, we can use that gaming experience to size up which moral values we might temporarily suspend as we fight back. Within games, there's also a constant tension between playing to win and playing to strive, because the struggle itself is rewarding. Playing to win can sharpen the divide between morality and strategy, while giving the player an all-or-nothing feeling about why they're playing at all. The reward they seek is external to the game itself, like prize money or recognition. But for the striving player, their reward is in the process — the cooperation, the friendship between players, and the time they get to explore and develop their skills. That means that losses are disappointing, but they're not final. I cannot emphasize this enough. Antifascists and anti-capitalists lose many, many battles as the world cycles into bad times. Winning against fascism is crucial, and that's why strategy is so important. But because it does not happen all the time, or even very often, because we go through periods in which we lose over and over again, winning cannot be the only reason we fight. We're not fighting as if it's gambling or for personal gain. We do not go forward after making a comprehensive cost-benefit analysis and determining our chances of success are high. We fight because we love to protect the vulnerable, and it feels good to do it, and doing so helps to forge the deepest friendships we can have. That's the show for this week, folks. You can join me over on Patreon for a bonus episode update on Mark Carney's AI strategy for all my wealthy friends. And if that's not a priority for you, or you can't support the show financially, never fear — every episode over on Patreon gets unlocked here sooner or later. Take care of each other.