Episode Transcript
ANTI-FASCIST DAD
Episode 15: Mother and Minister in Minneapolis
Host: Matthew Remski
Guest: Rev. Angela Denker
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Matthew Remski: Hey everyone, my name is Matthew Remski.
This is the Anti-Fascist Dad podcast, episode 15, “Mother and Minister in Minneapolis,” with Reverend Angela Denker.
Angela Denker: Yeah, you know, right before we jumped on here, I was texting with another mom who I’ve known for a long time about a student in her kid’s school district whose parent was taken by ICE at the bus stop this morning. They had the kid go on the bus, and then they took the parent. So it just certainly—the word that I think we have to use is terrorism.
Matthew Remski: So that’s coming up.
Angela is joining me from her home in Minneapolis, currently, as she says, under siege by ICE. As a journalist, she recently published Disciples of White: The Radicalization of American Boyhood, a book that merged her own experience of parenting and being a clergy member in the Lutheran Church.
For housekeeping, you can find me on Bluesky and Instagram under my name, and at YouTube and TikTok as antifascistdad. The Patreon for this show is antifascistdadpodcast, where subscribers get early access to every Part 2 of these main-feed episodes.
A lot of you will know me from my work on the Conspirituality podcast, where I’ve spent six years tracking and analyzing the effects of toxic religion and delusional spirituality, from white Christian nationalism to fascist yoga to neoliberal mindfulness and A Course in Miracles, to the most recent episode we did on New Age AI slopfluencers. So a lot of weird and morbid stuff there.
I turned my attention to anti-fascism at the point at which a number of things became clear. I needed some positive news in my life. I felt I personally had done enough analysis. I felt that there was also a lot of analysis out there that I couldn’t add much more to.
But I also felt that people caught up in bad religions needed accessible off-ramps. And for them, accessibility might not look like learning critical thinking or learning how to debunk their own deep values and cultural patterns.
I believe that for many folks indoctrinated into right-wing extremism, or even liberal apathy through their religious culture, the most accessible bridge they might have back into pro-social life might be through better religion.
As I’ve mentioned, as someone very influenced by Marx, I believe that religion is downstream of material conditions. And that means that any religious culture, in its diversity, is going to mirror the political spectrum of its day. So there will be those who use religion to sanctify nationalism or imperialism. There will be those who use religion to apologize for or try to compensate you for the cruelties of capitalism while upholding it. And every religion will also have a radical flank that says no: the deepest experience of humanity lies in generosity, love, and mutual support.
So as you can tell, I’m very interested in folks who belong to that third group. And the figures include Simone Weil and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, to the anti-colonial Black church and Jean-Bertrand Aristide, to the civil rights clergy and the liberation theologians. I’m also trying to learn more about Muslim anti-fascists and the spirituality of groups like Jewish Voice for Peace.
Now all of these folks have two things going on. What I believe is the most useful application of their traditions per the times, and secondly, they have the language and the family-like relations it takes to communicate with their co-religionists to the right of them. They might be estranged from their mainstream congregations, but some will still have an open door or a seat at the table.
So I try to interview folks in that group to find out how they bridge these worlds. And I found Angela Denker on that bridge.
Angela is a Lutheran minister and a journalist and a parent to two sons. And in her excellent book, Disciples of White: The Radicalization of American Boyhood, she reaches back into the religious tradition that has given her a sense of community and meaning to find and deconstruct the threads and roots of white Christian nationalism.
The research starts with the fact that Dylann Roof was raised in her denomination in 2015. If you don’t remember the story, the 21-year-old Roof drove to Mother Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in downtown Charleston, intent on starting a race war by killing nine parishioners gathered at an evening Bible study group.
And as the mother of two white boys, Denker was terrified of how close to home this radicalization was.
That connection launched her into an excavation of what she called White Jesus, the central figure in the Christian industrial complex, a marketing pipeline for division, control, and hierarchy. This in turn brought her into closer contact with the Jesus she has come to see in the Gospel: the advocate for the poor, the peacemaker.
So while White Jesus recruits young men by offering certainty and belonging, and the promise of patriarchal control over women and the fragile safety of suppressed emotions, Angela Denker argues that the actual Jesus of the Gospel is offering something very different.
Now it’s almost too on the nose that Jonathan Ross, the ICE agent we all watched murder Renee Goode just a few miles from Angela’s home, and who has yet to be furloughed, let alone investigated and charged, is described as a conservative Christian by his family.
So here’s my conversation with Angela. I asked her about the on-the-ground conditions in Minneapolis first, but then I also wanted to know some of the logistics of her clerical life, especially in times of crisis.
Because I think it’s important for anti-fascists of all cultural persuasions to hear about various forms of community care, how they are organized, and what animates them. And then we dove into her study of white Christian nationalism and the type of Christianity she believes can counter it.
Matthew Remski: Angela Denker, welcome to Anti-Fascist Dad.
Angela Denker: Hi. Glad we could make this happen.
Matthew Remski: Now, can you be our honorary anti-fascist mom for today, or should we stick with anti-fascist reverend?
Angela Denker: Well, let me tell you, I’ll take the mom title, because I think there are a lot of anti-fascist moms here in Minneapolis that are really making our voices heard right now. So glad to be among them.
Matthew Remski: Yeah, let’s start there. I’ve seen some of that play out in the incredible footage coming from Minneapolis. We’re recording on January 14th. Your city is currently under siege by ICE. What does it feel like there today?
Angela Denker: Yeah, you know, right before we jumped on here, I was texting with another mom who I’ve known for a long time about a student in her kid’s school district whose parent was taken by ICE at the bus stop this morning. And they had the kid go on the bus, and then they took the parent. So it just certainly—the word that I think we have to use is terrorism. They are terrorizing our city.
Angela Denker: We have thousands of agents here in a very small metro area—well under 500,000 people in Minneapolis in the city proper. And we have a very small number of immigrants. We have one of the smallest immigrant populations in the country.
Angela Denker: And they continue to send more and more agents, armed to the teeth, dressed as though they’re coming to battle, into our residential neighborhoods, into our churches.
Angela Denker: We are battle-weary, I would say, which is a terrible way to feel, and also very concerned for the children of our city, and certainly for the immigrant communities of our city and our state. Don’t get me wrong, I have friends hours from Minneapolis whose kids were in indoor recess because ICE agents were in their towns yesterday.
Angela Denker: So they have spread throughout our state. It is not only affecting the city of Minneapolis, but that is certainly where the most violent attacks have come.
Matthew Remski: What are you saying to your own kids?
Angela Denker: You know, I’m someone who would tend to err more on the side of more information rather than less. My kids are a little bit older—one’s a teenager, one is a preteen—so it would be different if they were younger. I think age certainly matters here.
Angela Denker: But I know that when I was a kid, I knew what was going on. I think most of the time kids know a lot more than parents think they do, but they don’t know the whole thing. They know bits and pieces.
Angela Denker: And so I think it’s really important for parents to ask questions, to find out what they do know, and to share to the best of their ability. I think it’s important to mix truth and reassurance.
Angela Denker: I want my kids to be reassured of the steps that we are taking to keep them safe, and the steps that their schools are taking, and also not to lie to them—to tell them the truth about what’s going on, and keep an open door for conversation as much as possible.
Matthew Remski: I think that function of providing some kind of coherent picture is especially relevant in such a fragmentary information landscape. It’s hard enough for us as adults to grasp a full picture of things.
Matthew Remski: But I know that my own kids will see bits and pieces over a shoulder, or on YouTube, or a short here or there. And I think sometimes, when I’m very concerned about being able to provide adequate context for something, I take a little bit of relief in knowing that at least I’m a stable person who can talk through an entire story, even if I don’t have all the answers.
Matthew Remski: I think there’s something really powerful and useful about simply being the coherent person with whom you’re discussing the thing, if you’re a child.
Angela Denker: Yeah, I absolutely agree. Just that consistent open door for communication, especially as they become teenagers and they’re not as interested in talking a lot of the time.
Matthew Remski: Now, the murder of Renee Goode by Jonathan Ross could have been a chapter in your book, right?
Angela Denker: Yeah. So my book that came out in March, Disciples of White: The Radicalization of American Boyhood—we’ve had several chapters added to that book since it came out. From the assassinations of Melissa and Mark Hortman here in Minnesota—Melissa Hortman is the Speaker of the Minnesota House Emerita, Mark Hortman was her husband. They were killed by a person who also made attempts—he had a hit list of Democratic legislators and officials.
Angela Denker: He attempted to assassinate another Minnesota representative, John Hoffman, and his wife, Yvette. They both spent days in the hospital.
Angela Denker: And that person was someone who had also formerly been an evangelical preacher, and someone who was steeped in the kind of violent Christian nationalism that we’re seeing merged with white supremacy as part and parcel of that.
Angela Denker: And we’re seeing that today now in the advertisements from DHS, in the borrowing of Nazi and white nationalist slogans being used on the podiums for DHS.
Angela Denker: I saw a journalist who I really respect today say, where’s the deep dive into Jonathan Ross? We still haven’t seen the kind of reporting that I think we need to see on his background.
Angela Denker: What I have continued to see, sadly—not only in the assassinations of the Hortmans, but also in the school shooting that occurred at Annunciation Catholic School very close to my home, also in the killing of Charlie Kirk—in each of those instances, we do have a through line that a lot of people don’t want to talk about. It’s certainly something that I saw in the research for my book.
Angela Denker: These were white men who were raised as boys. One of the shooters in the Annunciation shooting had gone back and forth on their gender identity, at times identified as transgender. But all of them were raised as boys, they were white, and they were raised in conservative Christian households. That is true in each of those incidents.
Angela Denker: And with the little information that we currently know about Jonathan Ross, we do know that his father now leads an evangelical ministry, and we do know that he’s been described as a conservative Christian.
Angela Denker: So for people like me, part of the reason that pastors and faith leaders here in Minneapolis are going out in the streets is because we think Jesus commands us to do so—to protest against ICE and to protest against this rise of white Christian nationalism.
Angela Denker: For us, it’s really important to grapple with the ways in which this faith of Christianity, whose name we share, has been used and perverted to idolize violence and guns and whiteness, and a very extreme version of masculinity that leaves no room for humanity or individual identity.
Matthew Remski: We’re going to be talking a lot about how you approach all of these issues through the context of faith and your vocation.
Matthew Remski: I wanted to get a little bit of basic information first, especially on my behalf, because this is a little bit of ecumenical learning time. I grew up Catholic, and the ministers—the priests—that I knew were obviously men without children. A lot of them were awkward around children unless they came from big families themselves.
Matthew Remski: Some lived in community, but a lot of them were isolated and kind of lonely technocrats of the church schedule. So I wanted to ask if you could describe your day-to-day as a Lutheran minister and family person.
Angela Denker: Yeah. My dad grew up Catholic, so I have a significant portion of my own family that comes from Catholicism. And it is a big distinction to have pastors who are steeped in family life.
Angela Denker: It’s been interesting to watch as the Christian right—its two largest streams, generally evangelicals and Catholics—represent very different understandings of what it is to be a member of the clergy.
Angela Denker: For evangelicals, it has been preeminent that pastors—mostly men—would be married and have children. Their roles as husband and father are something the church talks about a great deal.
Angela Denker: One thing I have historically appreciated about the Catholic Church—and I don’t want to neglect to mention the huge role of child abuse crises among Catholic clergy—is that the Catholic Church made space for ministry for a wider variety of people. For single people, there are vocation opportunities.
Angela Denker: In some ways, it’s a wider tent, and people are surprised to hear that. In American white evangelicalism, it’s very limited to men who have a wife who stays home, does a lot of unpaid work for the church, and raises the children.
Angela Denker: For me, you’re not going to get the typical experience of a Lutheran pastor serving a congregation full time, because I don’t serve full time. I spend a lot of my time writing. I have a Substack that’s kind of a full-time job. I wear two hats as a journalist in addition to being a pastor.
Angela Denker: My pastoral work right now is as pastor of visitation and public theology at Lake Nokomis Lutheran Church in south Minneapolis. We’re located very close to Roosevelt High School, which was the site of ICE coming to the school grounds.
Matthew Remski: That’s the same day that Renee Goode was murdered, right?
Angela Denker: Yes. And the same night that we had confirmation.
Matthew Remski: When you say you’re a visitation pastor, does that mean you make community calls and visit people in their homes?
Angela Denker: Yes. This is a unique call, and I’m really proud of our synod for trying this. Historically, the Lutheran Church has been very traditional, with the idea that if you serve a church, that is your entire identity.
Angela Denker: With few exceptions, the church has been hesitant to have pastors serve as public theologians. This call—visitation and public theology—is a realization that we need public theologians at a time of rising white Christian nationalism, and at a time when many people don’t go to church anymore.
Angela Denker: My contract right now is 15 hours a week. Eight of those hours are visitation. A pastor’s life is very unpredictable. You’re never not a pastor. You could get a call at any moment—someone is dying, there’s been an accident, there’s been a tragedy.
Angela Denker: On Wednesday, I don’t typically help teach confirmation, but I was asked to be present for kids who had experienced trauma. Some consistent things: we do a monthly worship service at a senior living home connected to our congregation. I preach four times a year in my congregation, but most weekends I’m preaching elsewhere, often invited to speak on Christian nationalism.
Angela Denker: Visitation includes hospital visits, elders—some over 100 years old—who still want pastoral care. I provide communion, bedside ministry, prayer. Lutheranism shares with Catholicism a sacramental focus—baptism and communion.
Angela Denker: That sacramental ministry—finding holiness in a world that has become averse to holding anything sacred—is an important grounding for this work.
Matthew Remski: What you’re describing is a really rich, embedded mixture of care that becomes the basis for your political work.
Angela Denker: Yes. I don’t miss the administrative work. When you’re a solo pastor, you function like a CEO—budgets, finance committees, managing employees. It’s draining, and it can mire pastors in capitalist structures that pull them away from prophetic work.
Angela Denker: We need to step away from the Bill Hybels, Rick Warren megachurch model. Rural congregations sometimes do this better—fewer meetings, more trust, more focus on pastoral care.
Matthew Remski: This goes right to the heart of your work on the psychology and theology of racist and supremacist ideas in Christianity. I want to ask about this central character you write about: White Jesus. Who is White Jesus?
Angela Denker: Many of us who were raised as white Christians were raised with White Jesus without being conscious of it. Think of the familiar paintings—flowing light-brown hair, blue eyes. Jesus doesn’t look Arab, Middle Eastern, Semitic, or Jewish, which he was.
Angela Denker: White Jesus morphed throughout American culture. In the post–World War II era, Jesus functioned as a stand-in for anti-communism. White Jesus is everything opposite of the Jesus of the Bible.
Angela Denker: Think of the temptation narrative—Jesus is offered power over kingdoms, unlimited consumption, and invulnerability. Those are the promises of White Jesus and Christian nationalism: absolute power, wealth, no accountability.
Angela Denker: This has nothing to do with a Jesus crucified by the state, executed for teachings about wealth distribution and care for the poor. The American church individualized salvation, enabling a distorted story of White Jesus.
Matthew Remski: As someone who grew up Catholic, the evangelical idea of personal salvation never made sense to me. The idea of choosing salvation seems to create hierarchy.
Angela Denker: Exactly. If salvation is something you choose, it becomes something you can lord over others. Baptism teaches that Jesus loved us first. There’s nothing to brag about.
Matthew Remski: Is White Jesus an illness or a symptom? Could he attract someone not already steeped in hyper-masculinity?
Angela Denker: White Jesus serves whiteness more than creating it. Today it’s less about American greatness and more blood-and-soil rhetoric. Historically, we can’t ignore the Crusades and centuries of antisemitism. White Jesus has long functioned as a violent figure used to justify domination.
Matthew Remski: In Part 2 of our conversation, which is up now on Patreon, Angela and I discuss how she’s navigated misogyny in the church. I ask her to interpret old parables from an anti-fascist point of view, as if they were YouTube shorts. And we talk about forceful versus nonviolent responses to fascism from a Lutheran perspective.
At the end of Part 2, I also reflect on a speech by Bishop Rob Hirschfeld of New Hampshire at a vigil for Renee Goode. He spoke about Christian clerics over the past 70 years who stood up to fascist regimes and died because of it. He said: “I have told the clergy of the Episcopal Diocese of New Hampshire that we may be entering into that same witness. I’ve asked them to get their affairs in order, to make sure they have their wills written. Because it may be that now is no longer the time for statements, but for us with our bodies to stand between the powers of this world and the most vulnerable.”
Matthew Remski: Take care of each other, everyone.
